Userid: Password:
BoaterTalk
BoaterTalk
BoaterTalk: The International Information Site for the Whitewater Paddler

Forum
Forum: RaftZone
Fluid Kayaks

Clear all "New" markers Turn on extra data

Thread View Frames View Board View

note <No Subject> New

Forum: RaftZone
Re: note Judge Dismisses Case Against Park Service rich.p New
Re: note So What Does it Really Mean, Blanche??? rich.p New
Re: note I have a question about the 50/50 launch allocation Gordo New
Re: note <No Subject> rich.p New
Re: note <No Subject> rich.p New
Re: note I respectfully disagree that this is not the proper venue for this discussion, this is exactly what RZ was created for Gordo New
Date: Dec 01 2007, 16:06 GMT
From: rich.p

Hi Gordo,

What I'm trying to avoid is the usual degeneration of these threads into Tom and I cherry-picking data, which sometimes ends up making people mad at us and our organizations. But it's OK with everyone else, I'll go a little farther into it, and try to stick with verifiable facts.

As my other post shows, the winter is a much smaller fraction of the total launch picture, which coincides with interest levels demonstrated in the data. They show that about half the lottery applications are for the Spring and Fall seasons.

I had occasion in the course of working with GCPBA's lawyers to look at the Administrative Record in the case, and the adverse comments on winter trips were notable only for their virtually total absence.

I also came across Tom's hand-written comments to the Park.

"Option B, Alternative C is close.

Include:
- equal trip sizes for all trips
- do not make reductions in trip length
- do not impair the resource by allowing recreational trips to operate outside of minimum tools
- allocation must not violate social justice and equal protection under the law.
- do not restrict small groups from special camps that are large
- the CRMP must address wilderness character
- the CRMP alternative must not degrade the resource
- I support the collaborative efforts of the Grand Canyon Wilderness Alliance.

I support the park planners and managers and staff. You all are awesome.  Tom Martin (address)"

See winter trips in there anywhere?

Moreover, in, "Day Hikes From the River" --  a guide compiled by Tom Martin himself specifically for boaters in the Grand Canyon to use in hiking side canyons -- there are 100 hikes described. Of these, 33 contain some adverse reference to summer conditions or positive references to non-summer hiking, including winter.

Also, let's look at how the Court addressed this seasonal launch issue legally (page 25, footnote 15):

"Plaintiffs complain that a substantial portion of the additional non-commercial days are in the winter, and that the Park Service acted without evidence that boaters would use the river in the winter. Defendants note that the 2006 CRMP increases non-commercial user days in all seasons of the year. The FEIS also notes that “there is interest in trips during the winter. . . . [W]inter trips offer greater opportunities for quiet and solitude compared to other times of the year. The less crowded nature of winter months enhances wildlife viewing and cooler daytime temperatures are conducive to off-river hiking.” [cite omitted). Ninety percent of available winter dates were used between 1998 and 2002 – 100% when they were made available six months in advance. [cite omitted]. The Court concludes that the Park Service had a reasonable basis for concluding that winter trips would be used by non-commercial boaters."

Winter boating isn't for everyone -- not for me, certainly. But it is for some, and we need to see what pattern of winter use develops. It seems more winter trips have appeared in the secondary lottery, which may be an adverse indicator. But it's still relatively early in the implementation process, and if there are major problems over time, the Park may be persuaded to recalibrate.

On the ice thing, over on the GCPBA Yahoogroup, we have about 1,800 folks who are interested in GC boating. In all the numerous discussions of winter trips -- many by people who have done them -- I've never read anything about ice blocking the river. The water comes out of the Dam at about 47 degrees, more or less, and it's moving all the time into a lower altitude, warmer environment.

On a broader level, let's face it, the CRMP was crafted to satisfy a large number of highly varied, competing demands. That's what has to happen in a pluralistic situation like this. GCPBA doesn't see the new plan as ideal, by any stretch. We didn't ask for the one-trip rule or the shorter trip lengths, for instance. But the increased access, shorter motor season, lottery, and other positive elements sufficiently offset those downsides, as we see it. And we're willing to take an incremental, good-faith approach to working with the Park to improve it over time.

Hope this helps.

Rich Phillips
VP, GCPBA
gcpba.org

Add Message

note Ice Gordo New
note Cold but not sold, and your access impereled TomMartin New
note An adverse ruling and a book do not an injustice correct TomMartin New
note I do agree with Rich on one aspect of venue, it's clear that this discussion has gone on elsewhere. Gordo New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note Brilliant Idea and a One Sentance Position statement TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note Not Bad TomMartin New
note Details rich.p New
note You have to save the document in RTF, THEN copy and paste from the saved document Gordo New
note Rich, don't worry... Pinecricker New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note <No Subject> Pinecricker New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note Lots to comment on: Here's the agreement TomMartin New
note Here We Go Again rich.p New
note Agreement good for at least 6 more years TomMartin New
note My appologies TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note Rank and File vote on the arbitration TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note Union example TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note wilderness and access TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note Some facts: TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note I am a lawyer and I read the decision and I don't think you are mirage New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note I stand by my statement. <NT> mirage New
note 4 way agreement missed out 17 other groups TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note Simplisity and the Pill TomMartin New
note Quick Follow-up rich.p New
question Question for Tom Gordo New
note National Park, Wilderness and River Traffic TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note You can't side step the facts TomMartin New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
question Wilderness designation itself would not prevent motors from being grandfathered Gordo New
note That's for Congress to decide TomMartin New
question Is the issue the motors themselves or the fact that most motorized traffic is commercial? Gordo New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note It's Both TomMartin New
question A couple more questions for you Gordo New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note That is similar to the verbiage used for motor use in the Main Salmon Gordo New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note I don't know if you missed it Gordo New
note <No Subject> rich.p New
note Motors are still allowed in the Everglades too, unfortunately. <NT> Pinecricker New
NRS

Add Message